Horween=Kleenex=Xerox et al

[spedrunr]

It's interesting to note that many name brands have been associated with products in certain industries. A few that come to mind (and I'm from the west coast, so not all of these apply).

1)Kleenex = tissue
2)Xerox = photocopy
3)Band-Aid = adhesive bandage
4)Scotch tape = adhesive tape
5)Horween leather = the pre-'98 old school cardboard stiff stuff

Whenever we see a "dot code" or "BLACKHORSE" Rawlings HOH glove, we usually refer to it as a Horween leather glove.

I had an opportunity to have an email dialogue with none other than the CEO of Horween Leather Co., Skip Horween.

Here's the transcript: (bold is Skip's answers)

Hi,

I am an avid Rawlings baseball glove collector. I was wondering if you could answer a few questions for me?

Of course

1) Does the Horween leather company still supply leather for Rawlings baseball gloves?

Yes their HOH

2) What is the difference from the leather that was used in the pre-1997 Heart of the Hide gloves that used the really stiff Horween leather and the leather that is used today(unless they are no longer using Horween leather)

Rawlings around that time started asking for much softer leather, they also used the same leather for lining. They are using our leather still

I've noticed that the Rawlings Heart of the Hide gloves with the coveted Horween leather we're, in my opinion, superior to ones made post 1998. The were hard as rocks when you got them, took forever to break in, but seem to last a really long time. I have a 1984 Rawlings HOH Horween leather glove that I've owned for the last 23 years and it's in really nice shape. the pocket is broken in (not floppy and thin) and the fingers are still pretty firm.

Again, the self lined gloves were a project to break in, but once they were they were fabulous

Were there different tanning processes back then? I heard a rumor that the cows back then were "free range", and the leather was much tougher and durable?

We use the same tanning process, but the temper and lining were changed. The cows have not changed that dramatically since then.

Thanks for your time,

Thanks for your interest-----Skip Horween

Edward Yue
(devout Horween leather fan)

So, I guess when we use the words "Horween Leather" we're actually still referring to all HOH gloves made post 1998 included. I'm probably being a nit-picky school teacher, but when I refer to the rock hard pre-1998 Horween Leather, I now call it the "old school" Horween or "pre-1998" Horween.

I'm all about using acronyms and abbreviations, how about we all call it P98 Horween or OS Horween? I've heard some of you guys use the term BLACKHORSE (BH?) or Dot Coder (DC).

Any other suggestions?

.02 [/b]

[Mike_2007]

I also recall that the last USA HOH gloves were "Oil Tanned" and a lot of old school folks were upset at the change. Like the HOH gloves with the American Flag patches on the wrist. So you could call the earlier ones Pre Oil Tanned or POT

[spedrunr]

haha, good call mike, i totally forgot (or chose to forget) about the OT's. although i have to admit that they really are decent gloves. i have a pro 1000BFOT that is still pretty stiff, but it does feel a little heavy and seems to be even harder to soften up.

how about Non-Oil Tanned (NOT)

or Pre-Oiled Stuff (POS, oh wait, that abbreviation is alread taken)

[RichieRich]

So, current HOH are Horween? Even the oxblood versions?

[LemonBall]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to point out that Horween is a tannery that makes a huge variety of leather, in a wide range of tannages and colors. Their most famous product is something called Shell Cordovan, which is a very highly regarded leather for making shoes. Shell Cordovan leather comes from a smallish patch of hide on the rump of a horse.

Last year I called Horween while doing some research and asked about "Heart of the Hide" leather. I ordered one hide, which was pretty expensive, and it took a couple of months, but when it arrived I felt like I was in baseball glove heaven.

It was just as fine and supple a piece of leather as I've ever seen, truly remarkable stuff (I made a bunch of lemon peel baseballs with it).

My point is, if you have the inclination, you can still order, good old fashioned "Heart of the Hide" baseball glove leather from Horween.
You just need to know what tannage to ask for.

Horween will make what ever you want, and I suspect the the folks at Rawlings did their market research and determined that softer leather is what most of the market wanted. As many have pointed out in the past, "Heart of the Hide" is a Rawlings Trademark that denotes the section of the cow, that the glove was made from. It does not refer to a specific tannage.

OK, I'll stop now...

[Mike_2007]

"We use the same tanning process, but the temper and lining were changed." What does this mean exactly?

Does the lining reference refer to the fact that later gloves used softer glove lining (palm) than earlier gloves with Horween lining?

What is temper?

[docglov]

temper is the way we gauge softness. the linning change was going away from useing the same inside as outside like the old days, and yes for the amounts we sell we have to go soft to compete I think( just my thought)
The glove went soft when in the early 80's Muzino came over and put a soft glove in every locker and gave them to all the big high schools so todays players grew up with ready to go gloves You don't see any other company making stiff gloves, its a fact in marketing that also on very young kids mom is more likely to pick it out. There again soft wins. Other than me and all my die hard friends here on the forum no one remembers what a long lasting glove is ..

[spedrunr]

sounds like the video generation, they want everything now, they want to start on game day without practicing, no patience (in breaking in a glove), "Attention Deficit Disorder"

[Mike_2007]

So how do you change temper if the tanning process is the same?

[LemonBall]

I'm not a tanner so I don't know all the tricks, but one way to get a different temper with the same tanning process is to select different hides. Every animal is different, some hides are thinner and softer than others. One type of leather that is popular for modern gloves is Kip leather. Kip is from a young animal so the finished leather is softer. Also, after the tanning process, hides can be worked to soften them.

[bs]

A couple ways too soften tannages:

Milling: this process softens leather by putting it into a large drum and letting it tumble until it becomes softer and obtains a pebbled appearance. Mizuno Vintage type tanning

Staking: the leather is run through a machine with thumb-sized pins that pound down and stretch the leather over and over until it softens up. Hides often make several passes through the machine in order to get desired feel.
I am sure Horween uses staking

Adding additional oils or fat liquors in the color drums will soften the hides.

Other things affect temper. Vacuum Drying leather will cause hides to be firmer with less stretch while toggling hides to dry often gives the leather some stretch and makes them less firm. Thickness of the leather will also affect final gloves firmness.

[Mike_2007]

Great info - thanks bs. One possible correction... I'm almost certain milling refers to "shaving" the leather with a milling machine to give it a uniform thickness... This would result in softer leather by making it thinner but I don't think that is the main reason for milling.

[docglov]

wow bs were you at Horween on my last visit? you are pretty much on, we control my camel lether with the oil and toggling but the other ways you mention are used with leather also. When you talk with Skip Horween he will tell you that of all the leather he tans the top 8% is able to be used for gloves. Another bit of trivia: when I started the hides were from the western steers they were probably at least 4 years old very tough and brands every where. To day they are from feed lots probably not much more than one year old I don't think you can here reproduce the stuff Mantle and the boys wore, these steers are have not lived the outdoor life to toughen up.
gloves 103
doc

[softball66]

This has turned us onto an interesting path on this string, especially the interview with Skip Horween and Docglove's input. I'll add a little more interesting note hopefully.
I talked to Skip years ago about water treatment on gloves (soak or dip glove into the bucket, dry, tie a string around the glove with a ball to dry etc.). If I recall correctly, Skip said that hot water would alter the leather so be careful about that.
When we reproduced the Babe Ruth Glove at Nocona, Bob Storey called Horween to find out if horsehide was still available. And we had to have an old process of "snuffed tanning" which the Draper Maynard Ruth glove leather went through. Horween told us that the Horsehide would have to come from France (more to the story than that) and yes they knew the process required for that sort of tanning result.
Back to what DocGlove is saying about the cowhide leather being used. Jim Storey, who was president of Nocona, when I began my work there, told me that it had become a day of "feed lot" cattle rather than "free range" cows that were supplying the leather. The "free range" cows exercised more, with more "developed" leather, if you will, than feed lot cattle. So yes, the old days of more durable cowhide are likely behind us.
After an interview with leather specialist Steve Laliloff many years ago, he echoed the same thing explaining how rugged horsehide was over cowhide.
Well the discussion on hides which DocGlove can lend immeasurable advice upon, I'll bring up in another post.
By the way, many of us are having fun learning about wood for bats in another string on this excellent and most helpful forum.

[bs]

Mike,

You have milling and splitting mixed up. Splitting the hides give you the uniform thickness. Tanneries have huge splitters that will split an entire side while the glove companies have smaller splitters to thin certain parts of the glove. Milling the hides is as I described, some companies advertise their leather as tumble milled just like the process sounds.

bs