USA Made Quality Control

[opticsp]

When I was a kid my coaches would always tell me the best gloves were those made in the USA (and I still have my Rawlings and Wilson USA made gloves). I understood this to be true because the leather on non-USA made glove of the time were like vinyl if not vinyl. What I am wondering is whether or not it was a question of quality control in the USA that was not present in the Japan and Asia factories. Also, what is the state of quality control today? I have noticed that many of you like the gloves being made in the Philippines. How do we know where these gloves are being made today?

[BretMan]

My perspective on this comes from 25 years of experience in the manufacturing industry (unfortunately, not the baseball glove making trade- that would have been a lot more fun!).

When the first imported gloves began hitting American shores in the 1950's, Japan was rebuilding from the near-total devastation of World War II, and other countries in the region had little or no manufacturing base.

They had a long way to go to catch up. And catch up they did. Not only did they catch up, but over the next couple of decades they even began to surpass American standards of design and quality.

The irony was they caught up by using methods and principles developed in the western world- statistical quality control, continuous improvement and lean manufacturing- that American companies were slow to embrace. The American companies had enjoyed a long history of dominance, not because their methods were necessarily better, but rather because they had no competition.

While the American companies took an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach, as the foreign competition got better it became a case of "it's broke and we don't know how to fix it".

Off-shore companies would eventually offer a product of equal quality to that of their American counterparts. Because of their cost advantages, both due to lower wages and their lean manufacturing strategies, they could now offer the same products at a lower price- a combination that sounded the death knell for a host of American industries.

Fifty years ago, imported baseball gloves were pretty much junk, as were foreign cars, electronic goods or just about any consumer product. While the US-based industries stood pat, the foreign companies upped the ante, eventually gaining dominance in the worldwide market.

[wjr953]

optics,
To the best of my knowledge, the one and only glove being manufactured in the USA is Nokona, out of Nocona, Texas. There may be some companies doing reproductions of older classic gloves in the States (some very good quality reproductions I might add), but no one other than Nokona is producing a regular line-up of Made in USA gloves. Since the big fire that took down their manufacturing plant, I've been keeping an eye on what they're producing now. In my humble opinion, the jury is still out on their newer stuff, time will tell. If anyone else has anything else that they're aware of re: USA made gloves, please chime in. BTW, I love my Nokona AMG650-CW. It is one of the most beautiful pieces of leather that I've ever seen or had on my hand. I also just picked up a brand new 12.75" Rawlings Gold Glove Series Trap-Eze (all black) as a back-up. This is another really, really nice quality glove, but alas it's Made in the Phillipines.

br

[opticsp]

It used to be that Made in the USA meant something, at least when it came to gloves. However, the reason I started this thread is that I slipped on a Rawlings Pro Preferred this past weekend for the first time and was completely taken my the leather. So soft and supple. On the other hand I still remember the day I slipped on my HOH in 1984 and how awesome it felt. The deer tanned lining was very sexy. Now I am reading about cracking and other issues with the Pro Preferred's that (at least) I have never had with my USA HOH. Are the new gloves as good quality as what we used to get? Is it worth spending money on the new gloves? Or do they "just not make them like they used to?"

[Turning643s]

I'm not sure about all the Japanese made gloves, but my A2000 that I got back in the early 90's (which was Japanese made) is outstanding. I think with the more recent overseas products, as long as you break it in properly and care for it properly, they can last just as long as their American made counterparts and their leather quality is very good. Now as far as Nokona's go, they are legendary in my opinion. I don't think any glovemaker is above their level when it comes to craftsmanship and quality materials. I've had a few over the years and their leather, in my opinion, is on a level of its own. I live in Dallas and Nocona is about an 1hr 45min away. I've been up there and been to the plant and store, now that was prior to the fire, but I just picked up a brand new AMG600-CW the other day and started breaking it in and the quality of it is just as good if not better than some of the older models that I have had in the past. I really like what Nokona is doing and they are coming up with new looks and their choice of different leathers is great. Still if I put my new Nokona right next to my almost 20 year old A2000, I think you'd agree that the A2 was made really well considering its been in use as long as it has and still looks as good as the day I unwrapped it next to the Christmas tree.

[Brotherray]

It wasn't too long ago that HOH was considered the top Rawlings glove so you can't go wrong with them. I've heard the same negative things about PP's as you have opticsp. I've also seen what PP's look like after a couple of years and I don't think they age very well at all.

As a proud American and a baseball purist, it definitely pains me to say how good the Phillipine made HOH's are, but as a consumer I cannot complain about the craftsmanship of the gloves.

My newest addition was a steal at $50:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :IT&ih=003

Inside the wrist starp are two tags. One that has the model number and bar code, and another smaller tag that says "Made In The Phillipines." Since you eventually rip out these tags it's hard to know where the glove came from. I'm sure this is done for that reason.

[bs]

The fact that Pro Proferred’s may not age well has no bearing on their craftsmanship. The problems with the PP’s have to do with the materials Rawlings chooses to construct them from.
The USA made gloves had their own material problems. The dear skinned linings that Rawlings used at one time could not have been very durable. Regarding the rips between the finger crotches Horween leather was notorious for this. Horween was stiff as a board had no stretch and when leather does not stretch it rips.
Good gloves are not just coming from the Philippians; Mizuno has an unbelievable plant in Shanghi. Also, Japan and Korea have been putting out quality gloves for years. I find it hard to mention Rawlings’ QC at their Philippians plant and Nokona’s QC in the same sentence.

[opticsp]

bs:
It sounds like you neither think highly of the materials nor the QC at Rawlings concerning both the Horween and the new Kips/Kangaroo (or what ever the PPs are made of). I have a Horween HOH and it has a very small split at between the middle finger and index finger that developed recently (after more than 20 years). It seems to me that Rawlings at some point had high standards for both materials and manufacturing. I also have a Wilson A2000 that Earl Malone just dated 1979 (I have had it since 1984) and it is super quality leather. Earl just replaced the lining (which I understand has been bad for this era) and new laces and the thing is like new. I wonder if gloves being made today will last 20+ years and still be desirable. Besides that I really can't get the feel of the PP I tried on this weekend.

[bs]

Opticsp,

I think very highly of the QC in the Philippians plant, most of the materials not as much.
• The Kip leather is too soft, a little thin, and is painted. The painted leather looks great to start but after the top spray wears off the gloves appearance deteriorates quickly. The main reason that HOH’s look good 20 years latter is because Horween was a naked leather.
• The felt padding is incredible.
• Linings used to be too soft for my liking but I have not pad much attention lately.
• The traditional chocolate lacing used in PP’s was oiled. Why? This made for excessively stretchy lace. Again I am not sure about the lacing at this time.
I do not fault Rawlings for using their chosen materials; they have sold tons of PP’s at premium margins. I just think it is unfair to blame QC on the Philippians’ plant. If they were supplied with different leathers they would make a glove that would age timelessly. Of course the public probably would not buy it because it would not be so soft and subtle.

Regarding the old USA HOH Horween, it was not my favorite mainly because of the lack of stretch. I do not know how their workers were able to make respectable looking gloves with that leather. I can only imagine carpel tunnel was a major problem.

I lack knowledge of the older USA A2000’s.

[opticsp]

bs:

Thanks for the info because I am interested in a black PP ;but if they are painted, forget it!

You must be right about the QC in the Philippines because the glove I checked out was beautiful. What I really want is a 12.75" Trapeze fastback in black so maybe I'll look for the HOH models.

Thanks again, and sorry to everyone else for discussing modern gloves in this section.

[Brotherray]

I never had any problems with rips in my HOH's. I think HOH's look better as they get older. To me, the PP's look "dirty" as they age which may have something to do with the camel color and the fact that it is painted.

It's a hard pill to swallow but the Japanese and Filipinos are producing some quality stuff. Mizuno makes a great glove. Time will tell but I have no reason to think my son's HOH Ox Blood that was made in the Philippines won't last him a good long time as long as he takes care of it.

[mrh64]

Brotherray..... thats a heck of a steal for $40. I have the same model (LH) that I picked up at PIAS for $65. I've got 2 modified traps now. Love that style web but it seems really slow to break in.

[Mike_2007]

Brotherray - you sure got lucky with the $40 Buy Now price! Now if your kid has a uniform to match that blue it's even better!

[Brotherray]

Sometimes you eat the bear. It was a deal I couldn't pass up. It even has the newer laced wrist strap instead of the snaps which DocGlov says will wear out kind of quick (makes sense to me).

That model really looks like a pitcher's glove. My 11 year old is a huge Mets fan so he absolutely loves it and he's got the uniform to go with it!

[GloveGypsy]

Here is a glove that I sold almost two years ago. It was just plain perfect. Great materials, great craftsmanship.

I am partial to USA made gloves, but I would own a Made in the P.I. Heart of the Hide glove in an instant.

My guess is the person who bought that glove from me has had many hours of enjoyment.