What do You Make of This? (Bill Doak Glove)

[BretMan]

Recently received a correspondence from an eBay seller looking for info on a Bill Doak glove he has up for auction.

Here is a link: Doak Glove on eBay

If asked to provide information or a value for this glove, what would you tell the guy (besides the fact that he is probably being overly optimistic). Just curious to see how opinions here would match up with the advice I gave him.

[vintagebrett]

This has been on eBay a couple times now. Without solid provenance I don't think anyone is going to bite on his story.

[Mike**Mize]

It's a nice looking early Doak. The main problem is the absense of the lining. That's a big problem. Without more thorough documentation all the specific history stuff kind of goes out the window. So, even with the two cloth labels, I'd guess the most one could get for it on eBay is something like $300 (unless someone comes along and hasn't seen one before and feels it's too rare to pass up).

[BretMan]

That's pretty much what I told him.

Without verifiable provenance, some definite proof that this the glove was owned, used or signed by a known Major League player, you are forced to appraise the glove just as you would any other vintage fielder's glove.

Given the glove's condition, with the missing liner, could you assign a grade of anything higer than "good"? While the glove does exhibit some characteristics of a "very good" or "excellent" grade, that one major flaw is hard to overlook.

Otherwise, the glove does have a good amount of eye-appeal, the big plus of both cloth labels being present and intact, has readable stampings, could be restored quite well and is a highly collectible model.

Appraising a glove like this one raises some interesting questions. On one hand, I'm kind of glad that the glove collecting hobby has not gone the way of other collectibles in terms of grading, where you need the item placed under a microscope to analyze the tiniest of flaws, or must pay a third-party entity to certify a grade.

On the other, when valuing an item it is good to have some common ground definitions of condition, especially on higher-end items where a bump up or down from one grade to another can mean a difference in hundreds of dollars.

The whole issue of grading gloves seems more fluid than the rigid guidelines for, say, coins, comics, stamps or cards. As a collector, I am comfortable with that. But, I wonder if the hobby will ever evolve toward a tighter standard of grading?

Certainly food for thought- and possibly a topic worthy of its own thread. I would be curious to get input from other collectors with their thoughts on the subject.

Back to the Doak. Mike, your $300 estimate in even more generous than what I had told the seller. I estimated only about 1/3 to 1/2 that. My thinking was that if the buyer took the expense of having the liner replaced, then the glove would be valued closer to one with an undamaged, original liner, but a little bit less.

We may get a chance to find out. I received a reply from the seller indicating that he may now offer the glove on eBay as an open auction, without a reserve.

[Mike**Mize]

Sounds like a good idea. Run the glove with a regular auction format and see where it winds up. One of the things I like about glove collecting is the variety of ways different collectors determine value in gloves. I wouldn't want to see that change. The whole matter of restoration is also an interesting one. More and more what I'm seeing is that jobs like relining and relacing have become less desirable, especially for the older stuff. That's why so many sellers now a days make a point of saying, "I haven't touched the glove or made any attempt to clean it." That kind of thing. The two nice labels on this Doak and the apparent condition of the binding are really what this glove is about. I don't particularly like the way it shines like it's coated with vasoline. I think you're probably right, though. $300 is a stretch. If it was presented really calling attention to its best points with really nice big photos, I think it might approach that. But speaking of Doaks, How about that beautiful Doak with Doak Box that's running on eBay as we speak?

[BretMan]

I hadn't seen that Doak yet, so I just checked it out.

A nice solid glove, with a beautiful box, to boot. And, another one of those gloves that can give me some trouble when trying to assign a grade! This glove exhibits characteristics of several different grades, so it's kind of hard to pin one down. Considering just the glove alone, since the matching box can add a hefty premium:

- Stampings: Non-existent? They don't seem readable at all in the photos. That equates to "good"- or less- condition.

- Form: The glove seems to retain much of its form, placing it in the "excellent" range.

- Label(s): Both are present and intact, though soiled. "Excellent"

- Lining: Badly chafed and cracked, placing it in only "good" condition, at best.

- Outer shell & binding: These put the glove in the "excellent" range.

If a glove exhibits flaws that place it in "good" condition, can it be graded any higher if it has other qualities of higher grades? Do the flaws outweigh the pluses, or vise-versa?

Or, can we assign a value to each of the individual characteristics of the glove, then combine the values to arrive at a cumulative score that captures the overall appeal of the glove? Not necessarily a mathematical average of those individual scores, but a sum of all the parts that takes all of the characteristics together, as a whole. I suspect that is close to what must of us glovers already do, whether we are conscious of it or not. Some collectors hate poor linings, some value clear stampings and yet others demand intact, readable cloth patches. Apart from any standard grades, we will each form our own opinion on the overall condition of a glove.

Fortunately, the Vintage Baseball Glove Price Guide- in its infinite wisdom!- gives us guidelines for grading such a glove. For a glove that exhibits qualities of several different grades, our grading "will largely be judgment calls". We must "decide for (ourselves) on the percentage of the price adjustment.

So, let's judge and adjust!

This Doak glove exhibits enough qualities of both "good" and "excellent" grades that I would start with a baseline estimate somewhere between the two. "Very good" lies right in the middle. Since the glove does have overall eye-appeal, I'll further narrow that down to in-between "very good" and "excellent". Call it "very good- plus", if you will. With book values as a starting point, that puts us around $160.

Next, some rough adjustments. Knowing that: Doak gloves of this vintage sell well; the price guide was published a couple of years ago; the two patches usually bring a premium, and; having seen sales for similar gloves, I'm going to guess at a 25% adjustment. That brings us up to $200.

Now let's consider the box. It is in better than average condition and the price guide directs us to add 40% for a box of this age in "good" condition. I'm going to allow an extra 20% for such a nice box, for a total 60% over the glove-alone price. We are now at $320 for the combined set.

Even after all that, my gut instinct tells me that this glove and box combination might sell for a bit more than that. But I am comfortable with my starting point and confident that we have a good base value established.

As a comparrison, here is the glove in question: Doak Glove With Box

Here is a similar glove that recently sold: Similar Doak Glove & Box

[Mike**Mize]

The Early Doak that started this whole thread just ended this evening. 2 bids, 51 bucks. Yikes.

[BretMan]

And double-yikes!

This one was at $51 a couple of days ago and I expected some more bidding somewhere in the course of the last few days.

Such are the mysteries of eBay auctions! Today, some truly hard-to-find glove sells for a rock-bottom price, tomorrow some cheap modern-day import glove goes through the roof.

Apart from supply and demand, how many other variables might come into play for internet auctions? Might the sellers description, intimating that the glove has some unprovable provenance, have been a turn-off? Could the "sick friend" line, one used in so many scam auctions, have scared away buyers? Was the auction's ending time a bad one? By chance, did potential buyers for this glove just not happen to see it? Were there other auctions for similar gloves running at the same, thus siphoning-off bids?

Hard to say, but I suspect the biggest factor was the fatal flaw of the missing liner. That is a killer for most collectors. Still, I could see paying fifty bucks for this glove, then spending the extra money to have the thing re-lined. You would have a nice early glove for about half the price of one with the original lining and would likely recoup your entire investment if you decided to sell it.

The other Doak we discussed, the one with the original box and the $500 starting price, still has no bids with about one day to go.

[BretMan]

A quick follow-up...

The boxed Doak went unsold with a $500 opening bid. The glove has been relisted, with the same starting price, but this time around free shipping is offered.

I doubt that the shipping charge was the deal-breaker the first time around!

[vintagebrett]

I'm a little suprised that no one bought it considering a similar Doak glove with box went for over 1300 a couple months ago. I think items don't generally do as well with a high intial bid.