The King Patent and buckle back full webs

[vintagebrett]

What would you guys consider to be rarer - the King Patent or the buckle back full web? I've seen more buckle back full webs lately but I think I would consider them about the same.

[GloveCrazy]

Not based on anything scientific, they feel about the same to me in terms of how many I've seen or been offered. Of course, part of the fact that they are less available is that they seem to be held onto more by collectors. We seem to part with duplicates first. Rob

[ebbets55]

Rob, this is directed at you bud.

To continue our discussion yesterday, King Patents are rarer or scarcer than buckleback full webs in my opinion. Buckle back full webs are simply just a different type of fastener. Fasteners can be of the buckle, button, hook & eye, laced or snapped variety. But, how tough are King Patents? Not very. There are about 20 of them in that Gallery. If we are a couple short, then I'll go upload a couple more. Still have a thousand or so old pictures in backlog.

What is rare - under 10, under 20? If there are thirty or so gloves around, is that rare? Maybe in the grander scheme of things but there are still 30 of them around. I have owned 12 of those 30 that I know of. I currently still have six. I couldn't dump a rough Spalding King Patent on the site for $100 over the span of a year, remember? Is $100 the sign of a truly rare glove, in any condition?

Lastly, the 6,700 pictures on the site are made up of roughly 50 collectors. That's it. How many Forum members are there, 700ish? How many people subscribed to the Newsletter in the height of all of this, close to 2,000. So maybe only a couple/few hundred are serious. Where are all of these gloves? They sure aren't on the site. I'm not trying to make light of a cool glove like a King Patent nor am I trying to discourage people from sending in pictures. I'm just trying to prove a point. How cool would the site be if everyone participated and sent in their gloves. If we know we are dealing with 25 Cobbs, say, out of 500 serious collectors, then we would know that under 5% of glove collectors have one. We can then make a metric or a statistic that 5% and under is rare.

I think everyone is confusing rare with desirable. King Patents are cool, thus many people would want one. I love them. Would I rather have a sewn web with a snapped heel? Heck yeah. Much tougher in my opinion. Are crescents rare. No. Just desirable. Say the demand for a crescent is 500 collectors but there are only 200 known. Then demand would outweigh supply and the price would be reflected accordingly.

Rob, I love to argue with you. Now let's move on to why Blyleven shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

JD

[GloveCrazy]

For those of you who do not know, Jim and I are really good friends. We sometimes have a difference of opinion about glove collecting, but that's part of the cool thing about glove collecting ... two advanced collectors can still disagree because the hobby hasn't fully matured (meant in a stale way). We both got sick of card collecting, in my case partially because it lacked that debate or spirit of adventure.

Part of this debate is semantics, that we use fairly undefined words to describe scarcity (tough, scarce, rare, relatively rare, super duper rare?). My thoughts are that this is a good thing. I don't think it helped when cards began having mathematical certainty by tallying all graded cards, etc. Part of the fun of glove collecting is the unknown and to some degree gamble.

We can also have a difference of opinion between whether or not a different fastener, lacing schema, web variation, or number of fingers should be more desirable or not. Supply and demand commands a premium for many (but not for all). What seems to happen is that some advanced collectors tend to migrate into collecting variations and are willing to pay more to add spice to their collections. A lot of forum readers are in that category which may be why the gloves we want are still expensive on ebay.

This particular debate hits close to home for me because since the early days I actively sought out 1" webs and full webs. For years, I actively called dealers and collectors to track down whatever was available in nice shape. I don't think bubleback full webs and king patents are tough -- I know it -- so when I read the debates (which I think are great) I sort of think back to the fable, Emporers new Clothes." In this case, I'm pretty sure that the numbers aren't painting the correct picture.

Jim, for a number of years you, Matt, and Ricky actively sought out all the king patents available, and I think you ended up with most of them over time. It was nice seeing so many in one area, but any statistical analysis based on your number of king patents is a skewed. I do agree, though, that they aren't so rare that they can command a premium in poor condition.

Now Bert Blyleven retiring third all-time in strikeoputs when he retired are numbers I can get behind

[vintagebrett]

Difference of opinion is great - I'm enjoying this thread and the fact that there are three 2 page threads at the top of the board show me people are posting more. Fantastic!

Back to the King Patents, seeking them out 10 years ago is different than today. You rarely see them come up for public sale either on eBay or in any auction house. Because of this fact I would consider them to be reasonably hard to acquire, thus making them rare. In regards to supply and demand, if one or two people have all of the King Patents, doesn't that make them rare to everyone else?

[GloveCrazy]

Thanks Brett, you said in fewer words what I couldn't say in a bunch. Rarity is relative to availability, at the point in time that you are looking for something.

[ebbets55]

Oh, I get it. Now crescents too are rare because not many are coming out to play lately. So gloves that number into the hundreds are rare now? Just because a good deal of the supply is locked up now in collections where people love them and collect that model, still doesn't sell me on the rare argument. If you guys mean that not a lot are showing up on eBay then you are right. That is a fact but it doesn't change the total supply of them, but I'll buy into Rob's line of "rarity is relative availability, at the point in time that you are looking for something." I'm currently looking for a mint Elmer Riddle but Rob has all of them. Since none are on eBay or on any sales lists, they must be rare. Bring it on brutha.

One last point. I think everyone needs to own an Elmer Riddle - great solid glove. Say there are 500 glove collectors and everyone has one. None come out of the woodwork and never show up again on eBay because all 500 are locked away and loved in collections. Does 500 examples of a model that rarely shows up make the glove rare because at that point in time when collector #501 wants one, he can't find one?

JD

[Bravosin99]

Jim-

We have a mint Riddle...email me if you are interested.

Josh

[GloveCrazy]

Yes, I believe nice crescents are rare, too, based on a lack of availability (as evidenced by Josh's recent experience). Supply that is not available isn't really supply to buyers. Maybe it's potential supply but again compared to card collecting, we don't have a firm grip on all that is out there. There are a lot of gloves that are still turning up from non collectors, which to a large degree comes along via ebay.

Loved the Elmer Riddle argument but yes, if none were available and sought after then they'd be relatively scarce compared to Tony Yorks and Joff Crosses. Along those lines is the Babe Ruth Homerun Special. They aren't "rare" in terms of numbers but they aren't available in good condition in numbers to appease the community. It's also one of those gloves that a collector may want multiple versions, and non collectors love, so I don't know that supply will ever meet demand. Maybe this is more of the scenario for the buckleback full web and king patent but they are relative scarce to those who want them, and it matters.

Keeping track of the number found is interesting but in my opinion is really only relevant for only those super duper rare and super duper sought after gloves (Cobb, duckweb). Even then, it's not as important as what the last three sold for, which I believe is more based on availability.

I've got a "very rare" Jim Oglesby Ken-Wel 1B mitt with a nice label and unique wrist strap that nobody has showed any interest in. This guy had a career comparable to Moonlight Graham so this has got be one of the holy grails, right? Unfortunately, without demand it may be rare but it isn't scarce so rarity alone doesn't mean much.

[vintagebrett]

I disagree about crescents - I think they are more widely available than King Patents and buckle back full webs - there are usually one or two a month on eBay. There is still a lot of competition for them and the price reflects that.

I think what we are discussing is "rare" versus "rarely available." There may be more King Patents than we think, thus they are not rare so to speak, but they hardly come up for sale so they are rarely available.

[Rickybulldog]

Great posts,

JD and Rob thanks for your insight. I'm so glad you guys are near me, I'm like a sponge everytime I visit. Rob glad you are posting; you're like Phil Todt, so elusive. Haha. Last week I got an email, as did Jim, from an old friend Paul Montesano who had a couple of King Patents. In his possession either now or at one time was a Wilson, Reach, Spalding, and a Des Moines MFG. The Des Moines I had never seen, but he said it is of the full web variety.

So, we can add Des Moines to the list of makers: Wilson, Reach, Spalding, The Japanese model (Mark), and Des Moines Mfg. Any others?

Now as for the availability/rarity thing, I think Rob you said what I was thinking. I honestly don't think King Patents and buckle back full webs are rare, but I do think that they are limited in comparison to their button back counterparts. In no way are they in the same ball park as the duck web and the Cobb. The ratio is the key though and JD I'd love to have a glove census, some day, which would help out a lot as you stated with the Cobb scenario. I just think attaching a number like less than 15 doesn't work as we grow as a hobby. Right now we have 11-12 duck webs known/ on your site. I know you are missing Jack Marden's, so does that make 13? What happens once we get past 15 is it now RARE? And I know there's more than 20-29 crescent fielder's gloves, does that make them COMMON/VERY COMMON/SURPLUS? To me that doesn't make sense because we all know how hard it is to acquire these types of gloves. I was fortunate enough to get my crescents before they started to get outrageous. I can't imagine how I could do it now. (sorry I didn't mean to hijack the thread to crescents!)


Just my 2 cents. By the way, when are we going to the LA museum?

[Catch2575]

Has anyone heard from Nuff Ced McGreevy! Looking for some button info! Would love to see his threads on buttons, so if anyone sees or hears from him tell him to post away!

[ebbets55]

Catch, haven't heard from him. Spare yourself. Once you get him started, you can't shut him up.

Bulldog, thanks for the assist on the Des Moines King Patent. I wasn't aware of that one. There are four more ducks I know of that aren't yet posted and three of them promised me pictures. Still no sign of them.

I'll let you guys decide for yourselves what is rare and what isn't. I'll always have my opinion and my opinion is that crescents, although desirable, are very common. Just picked one up three days ago.

I like Brett's note about King's not being rare, but rarely available. Well said. I agree that although abundant in numbers, they don't come up for sale often because they are.......desirable.

Rob, "Supply that is not available isn't really supply to buyers." ??? Of course it is! Supply is still supply. All it takes is for someone to "Bring It". You are the one who taught me that. Once the wallets open, the gloves come out of the woodworks. That is a fact. Trust me. If you are a buyer, then a lot will be offered to you.

Someone needs to start a new thread so I can stop beating a dead horse. Sorry, but varying perspectives is fun. I enjoy hearing all sides and points of view.

JD

[GloveCrazy]

Not sure we need the extra punctiation. Maybe that's why some people are hesitant to jump into the middle of a debate.

I do agree that crescents are more available than buckleback full webs and king patents to be sure. I said crescents when in my mind I meant adults sized crescent fielders with no significant flaws, but I'd agree with Brett that it still feels based on ebay experience over the last year that they are more available than king patents or buckleback full webs. I think that is sort of the main point of the initial post.

I'd love to hear other perspectives on the subject.

[Rickybulldog]

Very true. Based on ebay over the past year, crescents had been more available than the king patents and buckle back full webs. If my memory is correct, maybe 2 king patents (I know for sure the Deacon/Pugskiddo one) and 2 buckle back full webs (Both I picked up) popped up on the bay.