the controversial rolled lace web gloves

[softball66]

I had sent this information to my friend Art Katsapis who is one of the most knowledgable glove guys in the hobby and wondered about what information I've gained on the widely discussed Rawlings RR Rolfe or rolled lace gloves in general. I told Art I would also like to share this with our glove guys on the forum. Here goes:


"Art, on the rolled lace web topic, I’ll start with those players we have photos or gloves of and my casual interview with
Rollie Latina, the Rawlings Head Glove designer. If you don’t mind I’ll also post this on the glove forum>
In another email, I’ll touch on the history of the web as I’ve discovered.

Here’s the rule addition I think passed in 1949-50
“
1.14
Each fielder, other than the first baseman or catcher, may use or wear a leather glove. The measurements covering size of glove shall be made by measuring front side or ball receiving side of glove. The tool or measuring tape shall be placed to contact the surface or feature of item being measured and follow all contours in the process. The glove shall not measure more than 12 inches from the tip of any one of the four fingers, through the ball pocket to the bottom edge or heel of glove. The glove shall not measure more than 73/4 inches wide, measured from the inside seam at base of first finger, along base of other fingers, to the outside edge of little finger edge of glove. The space or area between the thumb and first finger, called crotch, may be filled with leather webbing or back stop. The webbing may be constructed of two plies of standard leather to close the crotch area entirely, or it may be constructed of a series of tunnels made of leather, or a series of panels of leather, or of lacing leather thongs. The webbing may not be constructed of wound or wrapped lacing to make a net type of trap. When webbing is made to cover entire crotch area, the webbing can be constructed so as to be flexible. When constructed of a series of sections, they must be joined together. These sections may not be so constructed to allow depression to be developed by curvatures in the section sides. The webbing shall be made to control the size of the crotch opening. The crotch opening shall measure not more than 41/2 inches at the top, not more than 53/4 inches deep, and shall be 31/2 inches wide at its bottom. The opening of crotch shall not be more than 41/2 inches at any point below its top. The webbing shall be secured at each side, and at top and bottom of crotch. The attachment is to be made with leather lacing, these connections to be secured. If they stretch or become loose, they shall be adjusted to their proper condition. The glove can be of any weight “

In my interview with Rollie, he told me that Rawlings had him making the rolled lace webs for the Rolfe models and it was time consuming and tedius. His other major point was that he though Joe DiMaggio influenced officials implementing the new rule banning the rolled lacing. That when Al Gionfriddo made the catch against him in the series, it upset Joe a great deal and he thought the diminuative Gionfriddo would not have made the catch with an ordinary, smaller glove. Ironically Dimaggio winds up with a rolled lace glove, now property of the Baseball Hall of Fame Museum (it’s here in Dallas at HOF exhibit right now). Doc Latina, Rollie’s dad, would always tell the pros that he would give them an extra step in the outfield (by the increased length of the web extending beyond the normal flat-web area.).

Photos I’ve seen of players wearing the rolled laced webs:
Carl Furillo
Red Schoendienst
George Kell
Bob Lemon
Joe DiMaggio
Al Gionfriddo
Larry Doby
My friend and glove collector Parker Apperson purchased a game used Eddie Yost Rawlings rolled lace web glove off ebay several years back.

There may be many more.

[doubleSwitch]

Hi Joe,
I have a photo of Willie Mays in 1958 Center field when the

Giant's returned to the Polo Grounds to play the New York Mets. Mays is

wearing a huge Rolled lace web glove. It's the only photo i could find of

Mays wearing the rolled lace glove. Was it banned sometime after that? I

dont know how to post phot's, If you want to see it let me know and i'll

forward it over to you.

[MVALZ]

The rolled lace web is still being used by me in the Northwestern Connecticut over 30 league....don't tell the authorities

Artwork by The Lace Master General, Mike W @ Gloveworks

[Mike**Mize]

There's a pretty famous photo of Pete Reiser using a rolled Lace Web Rawlings Glove. Bowman cropped it for the '48 headshot card. For years I thought it was a picture of Pete wearing his own Mac/Gold JCL Snare Web. When I got a closer look I realized it was probably a Rawlings RR. I'd guess the snare web was probably developed for Pete so that he could actually wear the glove he endorsed. I've seen one of these at auction (his own JCL Snare, that is); but once upon a time he wore the Rawlings RR.

[Cowboy7130]

That rolled lace web looks really cool ... ... Care to share on how you did that? I'd like to do that on one of my old batting practice pitching gloves just for the uniqueness value ...

[robin_buckeye]

I can't understand why this style is banned. What advantage does it offer over other styles?

Was is banned just because Dimaggio was irritated by Gionfriddo's catch? I have of course seen that catch and I can't understand how the web style had any effect.

It does look cool!

[softball66]

This is what makes the forum such a wonderful place to read the posts and share information. The rolled web when attached to the glove extended from a half inch to inch over what the standard barrel web offered, hence making the reach for the glove, especially the outfielder and third baseman, a little more important to provide a little more length.
Some players may have pulled the web out further.
Rolly thought that DiMaggio was one who had complained as Joe probably realized that Al might not have caught his ball had he been using a standard web glove.
The web issue is sort of moot now with players using 13 inch and 14 inch gloves.

[Mike**Mize]

Isn't there also the story about Hank Greenberg's basemitt from the rolled lace days? I believe he customized a basemitt with a very deep high arching rolled lace web that extended his reach tremendously. I'd love to get a close look at that glove. Bottom line, when done well, rolled lace webs are stunning. I've got an old Birdie Tebbetts M/G XC catcher's mitt with a factory rolled lace web. Just seeing an original one conjures up the feeling of 40's baseball with the old flannel uniforms and fans in suits cheering from the stands.

[JC]

Mike at Glove-Works does rolled lace webs. His quality of work is outstanding. He has some examples on his website at
www.glove-works.com

[BretMan]

Another glove repairman who was producing rolled lace gloves was Don Droke (The Glovester), who operated out of Tennessee.

I haven't hears anything about him for awhile. Has anyone dealt with him lately or know what he is up to?

[softball66]

Don Drokes has had some personal problems; had to drop out of the picture for awhile. Nice guy though and he made a couple of rolled lace web modifications for me too.
Mike is right about Greenberg starting the rolled and combined laced webs with his "Goldberg" first base mitt contraption in the late 1930s. I was going to email Art that part of my rolled lace story as a followup on the RRs.

[NeonDon]

The Gionfriddo rolled lace/DiMaggio thing supposedly was responsible for the ban. But, in actuality, they just finally endorsed a rule that said the web could not extend beyond the tip of the index and thumb fingers. (TOday, players are NOT supposed to be using outfield gloves bigger than 13" but it's not endorsed either.) (And most MLB 1st basemen's mitts are much longer than actually "legal.") DiMaggio used a rolled lace web at one time, so he has no complaint. (The ball, incidentally would NOT have cleared the outfield fence. I've analyzed it from every possible computer angle, with projected distances and arch of the ball, etc., with others. It was a waste of time. You can see it with the naked eye. But that was before sabrmetrics. Heck, who knew that waste of time would be so important! ) The truth is that, more and more players who went to the rolled lace because they preferred it to the FEW other good webs available before, started using the better webs being developed. The rolled web was doomed. The Mays shot could've been during a game that was NOT a league/season game. That wasn't made that clear, unless I misread it. Greenberg's altered Goldsmith mitt (only bigots referred to it as a "Goldberg" mitt), was created by him to give 1st baseman an equal chance, with an equal web, as some players. He FIRST created a higher pillowed glove that started the controversy--a TALLER toed 1st baseman's web. THEN he created the lobster net, which created a DEEPER, not that much higher, web. I'll try to figure out how to send one of my photos of it and him actually using it. It, too, was as poor for everyday use as the "Gionfriddo-type," though that's not the correct term for it and Greenberg but it opened the door for more guys to work on improved webs. Hank, who used the pillow, laced web, Snagger, the lobster contraption, etc., also went to the Trapper-style web until being moved to the outfield where he used the Pete Reiser triple-tunnel style web splitfinger glove. Whew.

[softball66]

Thanks Neon for more clarification. You're right, the rule makers decided that the web extra length on the rolled lace was breaking the "rules" of a sort. That might have been just a rumor that Rollie Lattina had heard and passed along on Dimaggio's complaint. Also correct on the ball not going over the fence on the series catch but Joe D. probably realized that the diminutive Gionfriddo would not likely have made any catch on his hit without the extra "grab" that the rolled lace gave him. And yes, I was as surprised as you, that DiMaggio began using one. The Lattinas would supposedly tell outfielders they could get "an extra step" with the rolled lace "addition." The rule which went into effect in 1950 or '51 also limited the trapper mitts with the horizontal web controller on them.
I had heard that Greenberg's mitt wound up with the Detroit locker room attendant "Pepper" Martin (not the player). Greenberg also lent out his "contraption" base mitt to Rudy York when Hank shifted to the outfield.
Rule makers tried to get the 12" glove rule enforced in 1991 I believe but not much came of that. Largely ignored.
I think the rolled lace web makes an excellent trap. Might be difficult to get the ball out sometimes but it won't roll off or out of web easily.
Don Droke calls me every so often and still keeps up with the game and asks how our collectors are faring.

[GloveCrazy]

I found this forum topic very interesting, especially since the first rolled web glove I had ever seen was on Joe Dimaggio's gamer in Cooperstown. I took a picture of the glove because it was so zany (non symmetrical), but for the life of me I can't find the picture. I'll keep looking. Because of that being the only gamer I had seen of his I always sort of pictured him whenever I thought of rolled webs. I still will but for multiple reasons now ... hypocrite.

Ever since seeing that glove in the HOF many moons ago I have been hooked on experimenting with rolled lace webs and still do them on 30s/40s gloves on a regular basis. Several months ago I happened to pickup the same type of Dimaggio glove -- each without webs for some ironic reason -- and decided to make them into twin rolled webs. I tend to stick to the symmetrical, though.

What also came to mind during this discussion was that although the rolled web was banned, rolled leather around the top of a fixed leather web continued on with some upper end Rawlings and MacGregor gloves. As much as I like doing free-form rolled lace webs I absolutely hate relacing a web that wraps around the top of a fixed web! I had to relace a GC12 Mays that was a pain as the lace came up from the base of the web, crossing through the back and front of the web, winding through the tops of the fingers and back, rolled around the top of the web, and then back around the web again through the base of the web. I'd rather have relaced seven Red Rolfe gloves in that timeframe!