Best of August 2013

Discuss interesting gloves listed on eBay or other auction houses.

Re: Best of August 2013

Postby vintagebrett » August 13th, 2013, 7:32 pm

One assumption we've made is that the buyer offered the $200. What if they asked the seller to put a buy it now price and the seller arbitrarily chose that number? I have no knowledge of what actually transpired but I'm curious to how everything played out. Overall, it's a murky situation. Based on reading this thread, the overall feeling is that everyone who is interested in said glove, wants a fair shot to purchase the glove and an auction would be the best remedy. I also think it would be fun to watch and bring excitement to the hobby.
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby jpop43 » August 13th, 2013, 8:53 pm

First off, let me say that I haven’t a horse in this race….the item in question is not one that I could pursue (not now anyway), but not because of lack of interest. I think we can all agree that it’s one of the finest gloves we’ve seen surface on ebay in many, many years.

Although many of us are not personally invested in this glove, we all have a vested interest in the hobby and therefore hobby ethics. This piece and the facts surrounding it stand out to me as the preeminent case study in ebay/auction/hobby ethics.

Given that so many of us fall on both sides, as well as in the middle of this discussion, I think the dialogue here is good and healthy even if the issue at hand may not be.

I should also mention that I really do like the forum members who are championing all sides of this debate, and think that their platforms do come from places of integrity and with the best interests of the hobby in mind. That said, and let’s be honest here…we all also have the best interests of our personal collections in mind too.

Now, as you could see from my original post early on after news of this glove first surfaced, I did state that the buyer who consciously offered the uninformed seller a $200 BIN to end the auction was unethical….I still do. I was happy to see that so many other forum members felt the same way…most if not all of us are on the same page here. One caveat and to Brett’s fine observation…we are all assuming that is what happened.

However…

I am not so sure I would have contacted the seller and made her aware of the mistake (albeit huge) which…and let’s be honest again…essentially convinced her to cancel the transaction. I do know I’d be fairly peeved with someone reaching out to the seller of an item I won and talking them out of the deal (in so many words) regardless of how they felt about the item/price in question. We all agree that it was wrong for the original buyer to “convince” the seller that her item was worth a $200 BIN if, in fact, that is what happened. Well, what about reaching out and basically convincing the same seller to cancel said transaction for the sole purpose of ensuring that one would have a chance to acquire it for themselves even if for a very fair, very large sum of money?? **I should note that I’ve got very little sympathy for any seller who cannot accurately determine a value for their items in today’s day in age…a quick internet search and a phone call or two would have averted this whole scenario**. Still, it does not excuse what we all assume at this point to be the unethical, low ball offer of $200.

Anyway, I think the NY Sporting Goods Glove that was used as an example was a good one….$500 BIN was a huge score for that glove, yet nobody contacted the seller to let them know it should have gone for 3-4 times that. I know a straight BIN is a wee bit different than asking to end the auction with a BIN, but then really isn’t it just the value or desirability of the item that dictates our collective ire or passivity in this process? That, or the fact that many folks already have examples like the NYSG glove and aren’t as apt to speak out on “valuation injustices” when they come up. Are we having this discussion if someone landed a mint Mantle XPG-6 for $75?? Maybe, but I really don’t think so. The ebay police come out infrequently, and its never just for the best interests of a poor seller.

OK…back to this 19th Cen. glove. So, if the seller in this case was moved to cancel the transaction I think it was abundantly right to encourage her to re-list the item with a commensurate BIN or for open auction. I do believe that is the case here. So, to those who were gonna contact the seller anyway, kudos that you encouraged her to re-list or offered her what I am sure were more than fair figures. I 100% believe that she will end up with fair market value for this very special piece. I know that it will also go to a good home of a very serious and discerning collector somewhere.

I think it’s easy to say now that if it had gone for $1000, we’d say “OK, that’s fair…someone just got lucky”. It’s easy to say because it didn’t happen that way. If this glove sold for a BIN of $3000 there would obviously be those who would consider reaching out to the seller just the same way they did here. Why? Well, the glove is worth far more than even that $3000. So, where is the threshold between “the buyer got lucky” and “I feel justified to convince the seller to cancel the transaction and consider my higher offer/bid”. The problem is that there isn’t a threshold…its completely arbitrary and based upon ones needs/desires and their resources.

Consider that scenario (as I’m sure most of you already have)…seller lists this glove as an auction…buyer reaches out and offers a BIN of $3000…seller accepts it. Seller still got taken, buyer makes out like a bandit, and many of us (at least those in the know) view the scenario no different than we do now with the $200 figure in play. Where’s the threshold??

Sellers end auctions and accept BIN’s without guns to their heads…they do it all the time…never have we been so outraged and moved to action as we have been in this instance…why?? I know…the $200, right?? Just not sure I’m buyin’ that yet and I don’t think I have to. The $200, if it went down the way we’re assuming, is a great argument…conscious attempts to deceive should be quashed. What if it were $2000? $5000? Who says what’s enough money when a registered ebay seller with over 7300 transactions (as in this case) has made a decision, informed or not, to complete a transaction with any one buyer?

So, back to my point that we are all also looking out for our own personal collections. Isn’t that a little, tiny bit of what’s going on here?? Again, we’re not having this discussion if someone “stole” a Mantle glove or even a nice crescent padded glove (New York Sporting Goods double buckle crescent, remember). We’re having it because this is the best new toy to come along in ages. Seriously, how much of this is about taking care of the unassuming seller vs. getting another shot at the golden ring. Let’s take care of the seller then. Perhaps someone should let the seller know that a major auction house like REA or Hunt’s would love to have this glove and that they’d likely do as good if not better there than on ebay??

My “problem” here, if you can call it that, isn’t with what happened, but with what could happen….this is a slippery slope. Another buyer/collector/dealer sees an item I/you won (even if we just got lucky on a proposed but fair BIN)…they really want it and would pay more given the chance…they create the chance by contacting the seller…see where this is going…This is the problem.

There is nothing at all wrong with creating opportunity for ourselves to benefit from…hopefully we all do it, that’s what being a successful collector is all about. Let’s just be intellectually honest with each other…lots of us want this glove, a few can go after it. They should…let’s just be careful about the process as weighed against our hobby ethics and how we’d like others to respect the deals we close…especially the “steals”.

The good news is that I don’t really consider this a “problem” here and now. I say that because I know all those involved here in the discussion….really good, really honest guys who are genuinely concerned for the hobby. I think that dialogue is good for the hobby and am glad that we’re having a tough one here….we’ll only be stronger for it. Let’s take what we gain out of all of these discussions and apply it down the road…otherwise, it was futile.

Again, I really respect everyone involved here to the utmost and am still very much looking at this without my mind completely made up. There is NOBODY here that should take offense to what I’ve said…just wanted to throw in my two cents after thinking about this for two days. I am sure that with more posts and more perspectives my opinion will evolve further.

Now, lets move on to a real injustice…my Ruffing glove that only fetched $78!

My continued best and happy hunting to all,

Jonathan
http://www.dugouttreasures.com
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby Mr. Mitt » August 13th, 2013, 10:00 pm

jpop43 wrote:So, back to my point that we are all also looking out for our own personal collections. Isn’t that a little, tiny bit of what’s going on here?? Jonathan



Extremely eloquent and very well said, Jonathan. We all have opinions, right or wrong compared with others’. I hate to pick out one piece of your tome, but I feel it’s a significant point of your theory. I see your point about looking out for our own collections, but what if I already owned the exact same glove, in far better condition? Would your premise still apply? Would I be more apt to be looking to acquire it for my personal collection or, just perhaps, could there be a shred of altruism in my cold blood?
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby ScottWNJ » August 13th, 2013, 10:08 pm

Best thread ever!!!

Has it been established WHO the buyer was? I did a little digging and matched up the buyers feedback number with the feedback number of a known seller and, I think, forum member. While it is possible that several people have that exact feedback number, the very first Ebay ID I searched came up with feedback of 1271 (as of tonight). I don't know if it is important to know who the buyer was, but if his behavior in this instance is deemed unethical, is that a red flag to be considered when dealing with him in his other auctions?

I am in the camp of those who believe that auctions should not be ended early. I've been asked to end some of my auctions (non-glove) early in the past and I always respond with "I appreciate your offer but I prefer to let the auction run its course.'
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby jpop43 » August 13th, 2013, 10:30 pm

Thank you, Jerry for taking the time to actually read the post objectively and not respond in a knee jerk fashion...its one of the many reasons for why I consider you such a valuable member of this community and a personal friend.

I stand by my premise and think it still applies because it wasn't specifically aimed at you or anyone else...as was pointed out, there is more than one person who reached out to the would be seller. Besides...who wouldn't want to add this glove to their collection even if they already had one...and had one better. Although none of you can see it...this is me sitting here jealous like.

As I stated, I don't think that looking out for our own personal collections is a bad thing...I try and do it everyday. I guess I was just trying to float the notion that we all take some time to think how we go about doing it. Kind of a collective azimuth check that is good for us all and good for the health of the hobby.

For the record, one of the greatest pleasures I've had in this hobby has been getting to know Mr. Mitt...Jerry here is one of the good guys and as humble a collector as you'll ever meet...cold blood and all.

JP
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby glovejunkie » August 13th, 2013, 10:39 pm

I don't like how this all went down and seems all very sketchy at best to me. Though I think more than likely the $200 offer was made in a devious nature and snatch up fairly unethically, again Jonathan makes many good points in my opinion, and seemed very genuine about not offending anyone. I agree that everyone in this case seems to be genuine in their thoughts and trying to do the best thing for the hobby by letting the seller know, and all involved in this conversation seem to be great people to have in the hobby!!

With that said, however, it does seem that this has become somewhat about collections and deep pockets, which I don't have on this one for sure:( But certainly I've had the scenario come up before where I have a very rare or one-of-a-kind glove possibly and seen another pop up, well I can surely say I wouldn't want it to go dirt cheap. Simple economics, if I paid 5-10k I certainly wouldn't want a similar one selling for $200, value killer!! May be very extreme in this case, and I have an absolute passion for this hobby and LOVE seeing new cool stuff, but not when it makes mine a second, and certainly not when it sells a whole lot cheaper. However, I think this one was borderline stolen, so $200 probably isn't a fair market assessment, but that's just my devils advocate of how a nice glove selling cheap can affect people and their collections, especially on something this valuable and desirable.

Now beaten to death, seller somehow give everyone on here the story and let everyone know want your doing with it when you decide. May the person that wants the shell out the most on a small piece of leather :) get it!!

And again Mike, any cool new gloves sell on eBay;) lol
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby Mr. Mitt » August 13th, 2013, 10:49 pm

I respect your theory, Jon, but like I’ve said all along, I made the much fairer offer to the seller in order to show there is true interest at a higher value (as Rob said he does in an auction setting by placing a bid). Honestly, I don’t need the glove as I have one already, exactly the same model, in much better condition, though mine is missing that neat clasp mechanism. Would I take this one too, sure, but why blow all that money on an inferior glove? I’d much rather conserve funds for a different type of fingerless, not an identical model to one I already have. If you didn’t believe me earlier, you probably still wont believe me now, but I had the seller in mind when I did what I did.
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby Mr. Mitt » August 13th, 2013, 10:53 pm

glovejunkie wrote:Simple economics, if I paid 5-10k I certainly wouldn't want a similar one selling for $200, value killer!!


Absolutely not a value killer. Either it gets tucked away in a collection for $200 or resold for true market value. The value of this or other fingerless gloves are not affected at all. The only difference is who pockets the money.
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby glovejunkie » August 13th, 2013, 11:03 pm

Again, in this extreme case I agree completely, just stating that a glove selling cheap doesn't usually help a persons collection, hence the motivation behind many collectors buying and holding on to duplicates themselves;)

But yes, obviously I don't feel like any fingerless glove was devalued in this case, and great one of your own!! Amazing, and I gotta say, if I had the means I'd go for the button one too, pretty cool upgrade/addition, nice pair for sure!!
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby murphusa » August 13th, 2013, 11:45 pm

Driving home one night about a year ago I saw an elderly woman selling items along a fence line at 48th and Spruce St in Philly, pulled over when I saw a bat handle sticking out from the table. Went over and picked it up and it was a very rare bat that I ended up selling for $400.00

It had a tag on it round yellow sticky one with a 5 on it. Took the bat over to the lady and she said, "you look like you know something about that bat"
Told her I did. She said, "Even though it says 5 will you give me a hundred dollars for it", I said yes, whereas she said "damn it I should have said two hundred"

We all play a game here in our buying and selling. Dealers, of which I am one as I do not collect as most of you do, get a bad name all the time for taking advantage of people who don't know or who are foolish with their money.

But as a business person I have always believed that you should stand for something and be fair and honest with the people you are doing business with.

I do not know this lady. She made a deal she thought was a good one. What made me email her was that in the second post here about the glove it was stated that a member had "won" the glove. And at that point I made a decision to tell her she made a mistake because

I always thought "WE" were better than that
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby vintagebrett » August 14th, 2013, 7:18 am

This fantastic, little used early Wilson A2000 sold for $797 - spectacular piece!
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby theglovester » August 14th, 2013, 8:06 am

What would of happened if,bologna and home grown tomato sandwich in hand, innocently eating lunch and looking for a new listing and a diamond in the rough, and caught the glove in the transition from auction to BIN and was a hair quicker than the buyer that suggested the auction change.( I was very near there by the way!!! didn't miss it by a minute!!!) And a Johnny reb from Piney Flats pulled a coup d'e etat on the shennanigans. I would have pulled a trigger finger muscle buying it now thinking it was an original BIN listing!!! Totally in the dark about what had transpired before the change in auction listing.

would I feel remorse?? tell seller to relist she made a faux paus (fox paw) Man that would be a gut check wouldn't it??? be contacted and told I had messed up a prearranged deal with another buyer?? yeah I have an answer for that...Or go Biblical and get a sword and cut it in half and share??

would I be ostracized because I had a hair trigger, and found something similiar to a winning lottery ticket, and then the entire story came to light and the glove yanked out of a lifetime lucky purchase! Let me make this clear I had nothing to do in offering anything, just found it as quick as it happened and posted the glove info on here. No one would have believed me if I had won the glove squarely after all that has came to light, and I would be the glover unfairly called MUD!!

I have missed some great BIN and won some also, If it is meant to be it will be, and in another month be forgotten, but this glove will linger in collecting lore for a while.

I agree with many opinions, and great that we can address them here, even some northern thoughts have merit to a southerner. I have never met a glover I didn't like, and trust you guys, and feel comfortable crossing the mason dixon line knowing a few yankee glovers. I hope this isn't turning into a power struggle over who's ideas are correct and who is "Big Chief", We weren't bickering 3 days ago before the glove came on the horizion, were we???

The only "Big Chief" I know in this hobby is Joe Phillips, he got us all started back in the late 1980's with an article in SI and those glove tan typed newsletters. I kinda wonder what his take is on all this. Joe if you want to keep you thoughts to yourself, you may be the smartest glover!!

ps still no DD Dean or PM Pepper??????
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby jpop43 » August 14th, 2013, 8:23 am

Like I said in my post last night, as more discussion is had my position would likely evolve. I gave a lot of thought to what I wrote last evening but even more to what others have submitted since then...particualry because I hold them in very high regard.

Although I'm not sure we're having this debate if it's another glove in question, I have to take the words of guys I trust regarding their motivations and am satisfied to do just that. Perhaps I overreached when introducing individual motivations as factors into the discussion given that we cannot truly know them, but individual motivations, whatever they be, are certainly involved. I think we all agree that we hope they are genuine and honorable, and given the players here, I think they are.

There is still the issue of practice/process in this case and there are clearly a number of opinions on this matter...again, none right and none wrong...just different, and I do believe that there is still space for discussion on this front.

After spending some time with this all last night I came up with what I (me, just Jon) would like to have seen happen...

When I saw the initial post on the forum I immediately sent the link to my Dad and brother along with my thoughts on how unbelievable it all was...no facts, just shock. As the facts came in, I fell in line with everyone else who thought that something unethical had gone down...not sure, but certainly suspicious. I would have been very comfortable with guys reaching out to the seller and encouraging her not to end acution/accept BIN before it closed, but it was over. I would not have reached out, regardless of motivation...even altrusim, to provide her info that convinced her to cancel a viable ebay transaction regardless of how I felt about it.

Instead, I would have been on board with simply gathering the facts of the case and taking appropriate action with the buyer. If the buyer did consciously offer a $200 BIN rather than stumble into an unbelievable $200 BIN by accident, I would want him identified. The ID would not have proved all hard given his buying history and the fact that he seems to be a glove collector...maybe even a forum member.

Once identified that $200 glove would be his scarlett letter for the rest of his collecting life. It'd be his albatross and the item that got him black listed in the hobby. He would not have gotten away with anything...he would not have "won" anything at all...he'd have lost. It would have satisfied things for me.

My hang up was the cancelling of a transaction. Maybe not the transaction in this case given what seem to be the good intentions of those who percipitated the action, but the idea that it's an opiton when someone (anyone, and nobody in particular) feels justified to do so. As much as we don't like it, we have to admit that there are those out there, even in our hobby, who are motivated by nothing other than personal gain...they may even be following this thread. If so, we must be very careful in how we present all of this because working to have a closed/completed transaction cancelled when we don't like the circumstances surrounding it is something I remain uncomfortable with.

I really do hope that I have been able to clarify the positions I took last night. I thank everyone who has gotten involved in the dialogue for the ultimate betterment of the hobby...good guys all.

Jon
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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby theglovester » August 14th, 2013, 9:22 am

Thanks Jon, But the Hester Prynne will probably never be identified on here, great point and got your back on yanking a LEGIT winning auction out from under a buyer who finds a hidden gem on ebay, by contacting the seller after the fact, not cool.. I check once a week for a "ROACH" brand glove, spaulding or a baesball glove, and have found a couple keepers.. fruits of searching...and wouldn't want it to happen to me if I followed all the rules. my last post on the matter! Making my head hurt and get to "CHOOT YANKEES" this weekend at the greenbriar in WV. I even had to look up ALTRUISM in the dictionary.

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Re: Best of August 2013

Postby glovejunkie » August 14th, 2013, 9:48 am

Amen!!
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