Gloves in Legendary Auction

[Mr. Mitt]

Just had a rudimentary look at the most recent offerings and am beyond appalled. The continued butchering of glove descriptions and inaccurate representations are not only a disservice to John, but to the entire glove collecting community. How the hell are we supposed to attract new collectors into a hobby we all enjoy and take great pride in by being dishonest with them in what should be a monumental marketing opportunity? It’s not only the current crop of gloves at auction, but also those that preceded. Inaccurate descriptions (when the auction house took the time to actually write anything), glove models that do not match boxes even though they are stated as such, and sophomoric restorations attempting to increase hammer prices that ultimately result in diminishing demand. My frustration is twofold. Not only is it aggravating to see an auction house trying to pull the wool over their customers’ eyes (wittingly or simply by sheer lack of knowledge), but their mistakes and apparent ignorance have left money on the table for the consigner. Omitted details have most definitely hurt sales. Over the past few auctions, several people who I’ve spoken with have taken what is written in the catalogs as gospel. Truth be told, an auction house’s job is to turn over inventory not draft an accurate history of vintage baseball gloves and mitts.

I’m going to get flack for saying this and I don’t care. Almost everybody that regularly reads this forum has found inaccuracies with these auctions, so I know I’m not alone, though I may be the solitary voice publicly. I’ve been around long enough not to care about my reputation. It’s the reputation of the hobby that concerns me and one of two things are happening; lies are being told to move product or the chosen broker is in over their heads and don’t know what the hell they are selling.

[vintagebrett]

I concur with you on the inaccuaries in the auction descriptions. In this day and age there are many resources available to the auction houses and it makes no sense not to have the most accurate description possible. There are many people who read this forum that aren't active posters and I'm sure people associated with the auction houses are aware that forums like this exist. Especially with law enforcement and the FBI cracking down on unscrupulous dealers this past year, it would seem logical that auction houses would want to be as accurate and honest as possible to avoid any legal problems. Perhaps Mr. Mitt and I can walk around at the National this summer, introduce ourselves to the auction houses, explain the nature of this forum and other glove sites and offer our services to help them in describing the gloves accurately. Obviously, if their intention is to deceive the customer then none of this matters anyway.

[deebro041]

I would like to start off by thanking Mr. Mitt and Brett for standing up and saying something. I am relatively knew to the hobby and I turn to this forum of professionals for advice and perhaps guidance. I must admit being new i will get duped into various descriptions of items(rare- how do i know). I know there is some deceit out there and the almighty buck is to blame. I try not to be naive, but i am a trusting person and if someone says an item is what it is, me not knowing any different i have to take their word for what it is.
I also would like to thank everyone in the forum for knowledge and input to help us rookie collectors. Your knowledge and professionalism is appreciated!
Dan

[mikesglove]

I have owned a few gloves that were relined. For some that is a non-issue and the quality/rarity of the glove and endorsement are paramount, but for me, I just couldn't get past it.

[vintagebrett]

I think there are many inconsistencies with the listings - condition for one but also non-accuracy. For instance, the Babe Ruth Spalding with glove box are not matches - the box belongs to entirely different glove. Buyers thinking they are getting a matching set are in for a let down.

[Mr. Mitt]

Look, I don’t want to go through this lot by lot, but besides the massacred Ruth box restoration (which is an absolute shame) accompanied by a non-matching glove from more than a decade later, the DiMaggio is a clear example of the auction house not knowing what they are dealing with. Did the writer of the DiMaggio description even look for a model number on the glove? They proudly write of a matching, pre-war, set. They are half correct. The box is a stupendous (thankfully unrestored) example of a pre-war DiMaggio while the glove is a common, 1940’s model 133. It’s in sight, clear as day, on the heel of the glove.

Mike brings up relining which leads to the restoration question. Cleaning is an accepted practice in our hobby, as is restoration, to an extent. Some people like restored gloves, others don’t, it’s a matter of personal preference. Either way, whatever is done should be fully disclosed when offered for sale. Some alterations in this auction are disclosed and others aren’t. That’s unethical.

This leads me to another point that I touched on months ago after the last auction. If these gloves were cleaned properly, results would be much better. Now, in this auction I see uncleaned gloves that, if properly attended to, would bring in greater results, while at the same time I see restorations that diminish the value of the piece. The restorations should, ultimately, be left up to the new owner of the glove, not the auction house. The Brine Gehringer could be easily cleaned to make it much more presentable while action was taken to restore the pita, apparently by an amateur, and it ended up being a disgrace. I am extremely disappointed.

[vintagebrett]

Truth be told, an auction house’s job is to turn over inventory not draft an accurate history of vintage baseball gloves and mitts.

I agree they are in the business of turning over inventory but they also should be accurate in listings. An auction house needs to be accountable to both the consignors and the buyers. Yes, a deceptive write up may mean a bigger sale, but an inaccurate one may bring a lower price as well. If I'm a buyer I want to know that what I'm buying is described accurately - condition, history, etc. However, buyers need to do their homework as well and I hope that this site and others will help people learn what they need to know.

[spaldinger]

Its always good to know that your observations and opinions are in kind with other collectors; however its unfortunate that so many of us agree on the hobbys shortcomings which never seem to get cured. Yes, its unfortunate that the Ruth box now looks like the new coat of paint hasn't even dried; and never will. Its not surprising to me that so many descriptions are wrong. Remember its the same folks; only the "name" has changed. Too many times we have observed in the past that when the house owned the lot, it would go to auction with flying colors, pomp and circumstance etc. but when it came to the lowly consigners' items, descriptions were wrong and (not very descriptive), special requests dropped or altogether ignored and a whole array of strange things seemed to happen. Now that they don't own any lots, important (negative) details seem to be missing on many of the consigned lots as well I.E. Box has been 90% restored, glove and box do not match etc. I'm sure John G. was very thorough. So who dropped the ball? Once an item is listed, there is no excuse for ignorance in the hobby. Every auction house knows where to go when there are questions, its just a matter of them making the effort on behalf of the consignors and buyers: or not!

[Mr. Mitt]

Well said, Jeff. The auction houses, all of them, have the resources to do the proper research, but somehow our segment of the baseball memorabilia hobby rarely gets a passing glance. Focus is directed to where high dollars are spent; cards, game used, etc. They could clarify questions with the consignor, ask knowledgeable glove/equipment collectors (all of these auction houses have met and conversed with many of us over the years) or come to a forum such as this. The latter, however, would show a lack of knowledge and ultimately a weakness they may not want to admit (though it's apparent anyway).

There is no excuse for ignorance in the hobby. With that, I invite anybody with questions (novices, neophytes as well as collectors who may be a bit long in the tooth) to ask. Post here if you'd like or, if you're embarrassed by a question or don't want to bring public light to it, email or private message me. I don't want to speak for others, but I'm sure many forum members would be happy to help if you were to email them too. No one is all knowing and a lot of us regularly bounce questions and ideas off each other, that's the only way to learn.

[GloveCrazy]

That Heine Wagner has a replaced lining and piping. I agree with all mentioned above and wish it were confined to just auction houses. Unfortunately, the dirtly little secret -- or not so secret -- is that some established guys are misrepresenting gloves on ebay on a regular basis. Within the last couple of months I have received gloves that were described as no ink that had tan paint over a name and a name obviously sandpapered 3/4 off (only that square on the glove). These were from guys who I find really really hard to believe that they just missed it. I complained to them but if only a few number of people are complaining then it just doesn't seem to influence behavior. I can tell you that there are certain guys I just won't bid on and that ultimately has cost them money on several items.

I absolutely think we should detail all that we know here about the Legendary, but at some point it needs to be taken to them to update the desciptions. Otherwise, we'll get outbid on items we may still want by uniformed deep pocket guys. Fortunately it's still early and bidding won't really get going hot and heavy until March.

[Mr. Mitt]

its unfortunate that so many of us agree on the hobbys shortcomings which never seem to get cured.

I absolutely think we should detail all that we know here about the Legendary, but at some point it needs to be taken to them to update the desciptions.

I wholeheartedly concur. I'm sure most of you occasionally read other memorabilia forums. I do too, but much less often now because of the continual bitching and moaning about negatives in the greater hobby. Let's not turn this into one of those. Let's actually try to do something and rectify the situation. If we, each and every one of us, reach out to Legendary asking for additional information and clarification on these glove lots, perhaps they'll realize that the marketplace for vintage gloves is much larger than they had thought. In turn, after being inundated with questions and requests (additional photos is a great one as they are horrid and lack detail of any kind), hopefully they'll try to get their act together for future auctions. Sure, alert them to mistakes and omissions, but also try to educate them as to what information and visual features of a glove are important to us. It could be as simple as them not knowing what the customer wants. Let's tell them.

[vintagebrett]

We could also do it here in the forum in addition to individual emails- list out the lots that have inaccuracies and then send it to Legendary. If they don't decide to update their listing for whatever reason, at least people visiting here that may be bidding will have the information. Education is paramount and the more people that ask questions and provide answers, the stronger the case for our hobby.

And Rob, I agree that this isn't limited to auction houses - your spot in your assessment of some sellers on eBay.

[Number9]

I've worked on a number of gloves for John, including the Cobb in this auction (the other gloves with restoration in this auction were not my work). If anyone has any questions about something I've worked on, feel free to post or email me privately. I'm pretty good about taking photos of the process when working on something like the Cobb.

[jpop43]

Brett's idea about taking some time to provide an education to these auctions houses during the upcoming National sounds like a really good idea. There will be a number of very experienced and knowledgable glove/vintage equipment collectors in attendance and those auction house reps will be a somewhat captive audience...as one can easily see from these posts, it would be in their best interest to pay some attention or run the risk of having an awful lot of lots go unsold now and in the future.

[okdoak]

I agree that it's disappointing that an auction house that deals in memorabilia can't give you a better description on some of these gloves. But the pictures are pretty good and I'll bet that most of us know what we're looking for and what we're willing to pay for it. One of the gloves is on my wish list, so I figured what the heck, I'll register to bid on it. Oh boy, my first experience with an auction outside of ebay. Gonna be bidding with the big dogs. Wait a minute...I need two references from other auction houses that I've bid with?! My 12 years on ebay and 100% feedback just doesn't cut it with these pro's. Well, I'll just smack 'em with my credit card info. Except they don't take credit cards. Yeah, a personal check is so much safer. Screw it, I'll just wait for one to show up on ebay.