Supposed D&M Fingerless

[Centerfield]

Ok… since everybody’s discussing this glove privately but nobody has the gonads to post a thread on it for those unfortunates who don’t have an extensive network of glove buddies with the background to assess the situation, here goes. Now that the supposed D&M fingerless is approaching four figures, it’s time to warn potential bidders (I mean discuss our thoughts in an open forum) before someone pays through the nose for a cheaply made, cut, children’s glove that’s going to continue to flake all over someone’s display shelf.

[ebbets55]

Jerry, you are right as a lot of us have been in discussions about this glove. I’m not one to impede anyone’s auction but I’ll chime in with my two cents because I think it needs to be said. Below is a cut and paste of some of my dialogues with other collectors.

In my opinion, and it’s just my opinion, it's a youth sewn web from the teens that had the fingers cut off probably during that period. It looks more like a folk art type glove and not an actual real live fingerless. It has inferior quality leather, and cloth piping. Cloth piping was unheard of that far back. Also, the strap is not indicative of a fingerless from that era. It's more like a sewn web style. The D&M tag is sewn over the cloth piping, which isn't so much a concern as the size of the D&M tag itself. It's too big. Earlier D&M tags are smaller, not this size. I don't like to beat down gloves and like it for a period type piece, an artifact of the game, but it's not a real fingerless in my opinion. It's not a $15K - $20K glove like an 80's/90's one would be, which would also probably be made of buckskin and have a sewn on padding on the front. Also, the thumb lies flat and does not protrude perpendicularly like the known examples. The thumb on the others points out and this one does not. It should be sewn on. Somebody probably made it by cutting the fingers off of a youth sewn web but probably did it almost 100 years ago.

Joe also pointed out that by the 1890’s fingerless gloves were
catcher's throwing gloves not fielders types and 80% of these had to be fit on left hand for right hand throwers. What are the odds that this was the match to a left handed catchers mitt? Not good in my opinion.

I don’t believe the seller means any harm to anyone. He clearly admits that he doesn’t know. IN MY OPINION, it’s a sewn web glove from the teens that had the fingers cut off many years ago. I wish the seller and the high bidder well and that they are both happy with the results.

Bid accordingly.

JD

[Centerfield]

Jim, you beat me to my next post! Thanks for sharing all that info. Here's what I had to add to my initial post...

I have to admit that I was excited when the auction was first listed. I wrote a few emails and made a couple of phone calls, but then I began to truly dissect the glove. There are far too many question marks to negate the few positives. To me, it appears to be a lesser quality youth model from the 1910 era that underwent period alterations. The cloth piping was the first flag. I have never encountered a 19th century glove with cloth piping. The asbestos lining suggests post-turn of the century, the button is similar to many early 20th century models, and the construction of the thumb doesn’t jibe with comparable fingerless models that are known. In fact, the glove’s construction does closely resemble those of youth model circa 1910 gloves. The patch, to me, appears to have been added at a later date. A friend also noted that very early D&M patches were more rectangular in size than the one in question. And finally, the red material on the wrist strap’s reverse just doesn’t make any sense. These are simply rudimentary question marks that quelled my initial exhilaration. Over the weekend I heard even more, in depth, theories that don’t help the glove’s cause. It’s a shame, though. I really wish it were what it’s supposed to be. What a treasure a find like that could have been.

I hope more of you express your opinions, theories and findings too.

[vintagebrett]

I've been saying to myself the last couple days "must post thread on D&M fingerless." However, being a dad and enjoying the nice weather has taken precedent.

I agree with what's been stated above and have shared my thoughts in email as well. The youth glove with cut fingers seems to be the most logical idea. My brain has also mulled a possible golf glove but I don't know when those first came into existence. We've also seen handball gloves from this era that are slimmer in design.

The seller has been great about adding pictures and answering questions. I certainly wouldn't pay anything more than $5 for the glove but a couple people seem to really want it. Hope they have looked at JD's site and seen what fingerless gloves look like.

[Bravosin99]

I too have been wondering what to make of this glove...At first I thought that there is no way a glove that old would have a patch...Then I can't say I know for sure when they started placing patches on gloves...

The thing that still makes me think it could be a fingerless is the row of stitching around the tops of the fingers (If you look close)...I noticed one of the fingerless gloves on Jim's site also had the stitching near the tip of the finger...Why if someone cut the fingers of would they have added this row of stitching? Doesn't make sense...I guess overall I still don't know exactly what to make of the glove...Josh

[softball66]

At first look, the glove sort of 'grabs" you. Then problems arise for a fingerless glove as JD has mentioned about the only fingerless (throwing gloves) in my 1895 catalog were those for the catcher. D&M was famous remember for the padding on its gloves (i.e. the Erwin) and this shows no
padding, just flat. Dave Bushing pointed out that the wrist button appears to be an early 1900s type and not either the hook and loop fastener or the little
button (like you'd find on boots or shoes) that went on these 19th century gloves. I am surprised at the machine sewn appearance at the top of the fingers like they were finished off that way which fits a manufactured type
glove rather than someone cutting them off. Dave also raised which J D has too about was there a sewn web on this glove. And the red 6 under the wrist strap. What's that about like Jer says?
I agree that the seller is not trying to hoodwink anyone with that low an opening amount.

[ebbets55]

Great dialogue guys. The first thing I would do if I were to cut the fingers off a glove is to sew it at the tips as to keep them from fraying so that is not a factor for me. I wouldn't put too much weight on the fact that the fingers were sewn. You have to look at the thumb, the button, the piping, the lining, the strap, the tag, the lack of padding and the type of leather, which are not consistent with gloves from the 80's or 90's.

One thing we do know is that these generally came in pairs. Where's the other one? If not, then it was paired with a catchers mitt (indicative of the 90's as shown in Joe's catalog). This glove has characteristics of a glove made after the turn of the century. Since this fit on the left hand, and doesn't have 19th century characteristics, it's logical to think that it was paired with a catchers mitt and not an identical glove. If this was the case, and it fits on the left hand, then it must have been matched with a lefty catchers mitt (fits on the right hand). We all know how rare those are, especially 19th century catchers mitts. So this one must be the rarest of them all.

Cool glove but too much for me to swallow. Keep the opinions coming. I'm a reference guy and I want to be swayed as I too would love for another key glove to pop up in the hobby. More for all of us to enjoy and aspire to ascertain one day.

JD

[stockbuddy]

Hey great find and an interesting one! Just a few observations that actually have been mentioned by others on the thread, but might be worth renoting. I am not certain on this one but here are my observations.

There are not to many of these old timer fingerless gloves I have ever seen other than a couple of pics found in books, one or two on websites and of course those found on JD's site. But none I have ever noticed have had the cloth piping, the best I can recall. The leather on this one does seem to be very thin and also no padding noticed. That stitching does almost seem to be factory , as Joe noted, and it seems vintage looking and that makes me wonder if this would have been a remake (knock-off) of the old timer fingerless glove. Kind of like the remakes of the old timer adult gloves, originals, 1920's for example, yet they came in the form of a youth glove 1930's or later as a knockoff example. Could this one have been a knockoff youth glove say from the 1910's to replicate the early 1880's or 1890's. Just wondering.

The patch and the red 6 seems strange to be on an old original fingerless. JMHO

Interesting find.

Dave

[perezfan]

Great thread, and I agree with all of the above. I also believe that the D&M Patch being sewn over the piping IS a big deal, and a telling reason why this glove is not quite "as advertised".

The D&M Patch was obviously added later, and definitely supports Stockbuddy's "knockoff" theory. Why else would this glove have a more modern patch that was clumsily and haphazardly added at a later date?

[Centerfield]

With very little time left for the auction, and its ascent above $1500, I’m wondering if the bidder/potential bidders are lacking vintage glove experience/knowledge and are seriously overpaying for a cut youth model or if they have some evidence (such as a D&M catalog) which actually highlights this glove. That would be a riot if someone steals this thing and then is able to unconditionally prove its legitimacy!

[vintagebrett]

Not much bidding at the end - finished at $1600. Would be cool if someone had a catalog to prove it was a fingerless. Too many red flags for me.

[Centerfield]

Totally agree, too many red flags. The buyer, who I've seen before but don't know, really wanted this glove as he had the top three bids at the close. I wonder how high he was willing to go?

[softball66]

I've been thinking that this glove might be the left handed glove of a pair of weightlifting gloves. Weightlifters use cutoff fingered glove for their sport
and one would look exactly like this (therefore the finger top sewn across).
I've looked in my D&M and Spalding catalog but the photocopies I have are
all spring and summer and I would suppose these sporting goods firms would have been selling the weightlifter gloves in their fall and winter catalogs rather than their summer (baseball) catalogs.
If anyone can do some research on this it might put a further light on this subject and these type gloves.