Joe Jackson on Ebay??

[drasher81]

I was just wondering your thoughts on this glove that was listed tonight.
I am not saying it is not authentic, but for that price personally I think I would pass on it. The signature stamping and model number have a very odd look to them. They are a located on a different color of white leather as if it was almost sandpapered to blend in with the rest of the glove.

http://cgi.ebay.com/circa-1920-Joe-Jack ... dZViewItem

[softball66]

I've not heard of a Joe Jackson D&M showing up before. The seller is Glenn Davis, who has been around the hobby for the last six or seven years and he knows his gloves. The glove itself appears legit. It's hard to say about the stamped signature as it's faded quite a bit. In Glenn's description he mentions the Alexander and Vance sigs turning up in white D&Ms. I remember the Alexander a few years ago.
If interested one can email Glenn questions and maybe find out something about the glove's pedigree, who owned it before Glenn, background on the glove's history.

[THELUCKYDOGKIND]

I have delt with Glenn Davis who is the seller of this glove for years and would think the glove is 100% legit!! He is a very honest guy. I don't see any issues with the stamping in the pictures it just looks a little faded.

[vintagebrett]

I went back through my pile of auction catalogs and found this glove in the September 24, 2005 Bob McCann telephone auction. The minimum bid was $500 - no idea what it sold for. The description in the auction ad is pretty much the same as the eBay auction. Joe, you mentioned the it in the newsletter about the forged gloves - not that you implied it was fake, it was just a "do you homework" mention.

[softball66]

Yes, I remember the Bob McCann connection now. Don't remember what it sold for from Bob. It's so hard to pin down faded signatures down like this.
The name and model # lines should fit where all the other D&M signatures fit on the palm and the lines should be perfectly perpendicular to one another as on one stamp. Not slanted differently.

[drasher81]

I am not saying the Joe Jackson is 100% not authentic, but the idea of a counterfeit glove is a very disturbing. Unfortunatly I don’t think that a counterfeit glove is that far fetched either. I think that anyone with a background in art and who is a bit crafty would be able to pull something like this off pretty easily if done correctly. With the amount of reissues and replica items such as the newly made lemon peels and workman style gloves who is to stop someone from artificially aging the item and passing it off as a vintage original to an unsuspecting buyer. I would be very leery of items like this without knowledge of the items prior background. I am just afraid that soon there will be plenty of previously unknown gloves surfacing that could be a plain old glove with the stampings gone and adding brand new ones blending the handiwork to match the rest of the glove and previously unknown glove appears as a one of a kind.

[vintagebrett]

Drasher, you should get yourself a copy of the September 2005 #92 Glove Collector newsletter. The scenario you described actually happened and was orchestrated by a well known glove collector. I had the opportunity to personally view some of the fakes and they were pretty well done - some were easier to identify than others. That is why I think the Glove Catalog Source book is such a great asset. Joe does an excellent job of keeping on top of these issues and presenting them in his newsletter!

[ebbets55]

I have been talking to Glenn about this glove at length for the last year now. My only regret is that I didn't have the money to get it myself. It looks great to me. Glenn and Joe referred to the D&M Alexander glove from the same find. I turned the Alexander down many years ago for $900 from another dealer because I thought that was way too much for a full web at the time. Jerry sold the same glove years later for $3,500. The Alexander was the highest quality, biggest, roomiest, nicest full web I have ever seen. I have yet to see another Alexander in that same model, which is what Glenn's argument is. The two gloves have a unique lineage and could have been made directly for those two players. I have little doubt at all that this glove is not legit, but then again, I'm not the resident D&M expert. I hope Glenn does well on it.

Jim

[Jerry Ficchi]

Let me first say that my name is Jerry Ficchi, a baseball memorabilia collector since the late 1970’s and glove specific collector from 1990 to a few years ago when I sold the majority of my collection. Besides the obvious reasons that we all share(d) for collecting gloves, I was drawn into this segment of the hobby because it was, at one point, a tight knit group in its infancy. It has matured and, unfortunately, acquired all of the seedy attributes found in most hobbies (even more prevalent with the advent of eBay). Yes, as prices increase the possibility of forgery is amplified. This is a problem, but not in the case of this D&M Jackson. What upset me to the point of actually liquidating a very nice collection were the people. Not all people, but a good portion of them, new to gloves, who brought with them jealousy, dishonesty, and outright backstabbing. That’s why I felt compelled to write, for the first (and likely only) time, on this forum.

Even though I am no longer active in the glove hobby, I’m happy to say that I’ve retained a handful of friends I met while collecting. Glenn is one of them. We talk periodically, most of the time not about gloves. We enjoy arguing with each other at times and laughing at many of the world’s ironies. I’m warmed by the fact that both Robbie and Jim came to Glenn’s defense on this board. Glenn has been a collector for well over 30 years and continues to teach, guide and encourage collectors in all aspects of baseball memorabilia, but specifically equipment. Granted, if there is any question about a glove’s legitimacy, it should be discussed and analyzed to the best of one’s ability. This forum should be a place for educated debate, so I want to throw in some of my knowledge. I must also state, as did Jim, that I do hope Glenn sells his glove for as much as people are willing to pay. I also know that if it ends up still in his hands, he’ll be content because it is a one of a kind glove.

He noted that there are three known white D&M gloves. That is actually incorrect. There are four (Alexander, Vance, Kelly, and now Jackson). As Jim noted, I sold him the Alexander. The Vance sold on eBay and the Kelly was sold privately a few years ago. The only fact known about these mysterious white gloves is that George Kelly actually owned his mitt, it came from his estate. Given this fact (as well as that these gloves have not surfaced in any catalog or D&M records to date), one can assume, surmise or guess that D&M made the mitt specifically for Kelly. Since it remains mint, it may have been a presentation glove, perhaps a gift from the company, compensation in lieu of pay for advertising/endorsement, or one that was supposed to be a gamer that he never used. In any event, there is impeccable provenance for the Kelly.

Now, the Alexander and Jackson are of the same very high quality white leather as the Kelly (I have held these three, not the Vance). One can assume, but not know for sure, that they were given to those players as the Kelly model was given to him. I tried my damnedest to research that Alexander glove in hopes of finding one shred of evidence that it was once owned by Old Pete or even actually used by him. I went through D&M records and searched the Baseball Hall of Fame’s photo archives and came up empty. I even thought about getting it scientifically analyzed for remnants of whisky to prove my suspicion that it was Alexander’s glove! In any event, I came up short but still believe that Pete owned the glove that Jim now has (Jim, post a photo for all to see). Does it matter? Monetarily it does if Jim decides to sell it, but I am glad that he appreciates its beauty and rarity as it is.

D&M made other white gloves, most notably the G41 Ruth. We all know that Babe used white G41’s at one point in his career and there are photographs and records to back this up. I have never held a Ruth gamer, but it would be interesting to compare the leather quality to the Jackson, Alexander, Vance and Kelly. On the other hand, I have handled about a dozen store model white G41’s and none of them compare to the quality of the White Alexander, Kelly and Jackson. As a matter of fact, there are two near mint Ruth G41’s (one in Westchester and the other in Atlanta) that are simply spectacular, but again, do not match the quality of the other D&M white gloves. This leads me to further believe that the four white gloves in question were made specifically for the players.

These are my beliefs based on experience. You can take my opinions as you want, but don’t be surprised if at some point in the future someone unearths evidence (newspaper clipping, photograph or D&M records) that these gloves were given to the players. I know Jim will be one happy man on that day! As for the Jackson, if you can afford to spend five digits on a glove, you will be the only person who owns a truly elusive artifact of “where triples go to dieâ€

[ebbets55]

Jerry, I'm so glad you chimed in. I miss you man. Great post. Aside from Glenn, you have the most knowledge about these referenced white gloves and I truly value your opinion. You are a guy who always did his homework and I appreciate that. I think this discussion is properly gravitating toward this unique bunch of gloves, not just the one.

First a quick note about Glenn. I feel like I have to get this off my chest. I have been dealing with Glenn for over 10 years now and he has owned nearly every great glove in this hobby. He has had the best of the best. He's just a collector, an enthusiast like all of us. I feel like I know him well and if he thought there was any chance this glove wasn't good, he wouldn't sell it as such. Glenn is a very approachable guy. Drop him an e-mail. Discuss it with him. He loves to talk gloves and you won't find many more knowledgable guys then him. I think it's pretty cool that one turned up and even more fun for all of us to try to figure out the mystery about these gloves, the Jackson in particular.

Secondly, there is something special about this group of gloves. I have put the Kelly on my hand as well as the Alexander (never saw the Vance). I have been collecting since 1994ish and have owned a lot of gloves. None are in the same league as this group. If I had to choose the nicest, highest quality basemitt I have ever seen, and the one basemitt I would like to own in this whole hobby, it would be the Kelly. Glenn owned that one as well at one time. It is incredible. The same goes for the Alex. These two gloves are a breed apart from what all of us are used to seeing in everyday glove collecting. Apparently, the Jackson is from the same bunch.

Lastly, Jerry, I WISH I got the Alex from you. I got the Wilson Ruth and the hook & eye crescent but not the Alex. Someone beat me to it. I did have the opportunity to get it a couple of years before you did and blew it because I'm an idiot. (I didn't have the keen forsight you did when you bought it.) So actually, I have two regrets, not buying this Jackson now and not buying the Alex then. Regarding posting a picture, I printed every page of your website before you took it down because it was such a great reference tool. I probably could come up with a picture if anyone wants.

Stick around for awhile, Jerry. You are missed and always have a lot of good stuff to add.

Jim

[mudman]

I really want to thank all you guys for the GREAT info and knowledge that you are sharing with us. This is the main reason that I like this forum so much. Where else are you gonna learn this much about the hobby?

So thanks again to one and all.

[Jerry Ficchi]

Thanks for your kind words, Jim. There are a whole lot of old-timers who know more than I, and all of us continue to learn as new information and gloves surface. I just wish more of the neophyte collectors took the initiative to learn from the old timers and not simply play around on eBay thinking they know everything. I also want to say something, which I know will get me in trouble with many people, but I’m going to say it anyway. It’s not meant as a slight to him at all, only to those who seek ONLY his guidance. Joe Phillips has done more for growing the glove collecting hobby than anyone, hands down. However, he is not the only authority on gloves. Too many collectors take his word as the “be-all end-allâ€

[Jerry Ficchi]

I found the notes on my old gloves and we’re in for a real treat, if I can persuade him to post. The gentleman who bought the white D&M G99 Alexander from me also had one of the two best D&M G41 Ruth specimens you’ll ever see. I’m not certain he still has them, but I gather he does. I’ll ask him to post photos, compare the quality of the Alexander to the Ruth, as well as the similarities of the Alexander to the Jackson. Hopefully he’ll oblige and perhaps shed some light on the subject.

[vintagebrett]

Jerry and Jim,

Thanks so much for posting all that information. When I created this forum, this is exactly the kind of discussion that I had in mind. Like Jerry said, there are lots of people who have glove information out there. I think it's great that it can be posted and shared with fellow collectors. Sharing information can only help the hobby as a whole. Those pictures would be an absolute blast - I love seeing glove pictures and I'm sure a lot of other people here do as well.

[softball66]

Thanks to Jerry for pointing out that everyone makes mistakes. We all do. I've known Jim, Glenn and Jerry for years and they all do their homework and have a love for the glove hobby. And yes we do make mistakes. In my early years I once told a fellow that there was not a Marty Marion glove other than Rawlings. I quickly found out differently.
I love the great Byron Nelson's quote when asked about his expertise, he told the questioner, "I know a little bit about golf and how to make a good stew." I've since learned to be more careful.
Being compared to Bill Madden, I'm not so sure about that. I don't think I've written any stories that I couldn't back up. Make mistakes yes. Correct them if I do, I try. I do get the impression from Jerry's post that I'm questioning Glenn's Jackson glove. I am questioning the signature because it's weak and thus a bit hard to determine any problems with it. And, that's where the big value is in this glove. That no other D&Ms with Jackson's signature have shown up does throw up a flag.
And it should if you've read our lead newsletter story of this summer where nearly every one of some 20 odd fake gloves was a FIRST!
Jerry's right about his Joe Dimaggios not being catalogued because I know of several hundred store gloves that haven't shown up in the catalogs that we have. I'm not saying these are fakes, I'm saying let's examine them. If they fit in; they fit in.
Jerry, Jim, Glenn, Bob Mayer, John Graham and a few others have seen these more expensive gloves and other gloves as well and they do buy and sell in a relative special and expensive niche. And you can turn to these gentlemen for advice. You can also apply your own questions: check the pedigree of the gloves, see what comparisons exists and how stampings compare, and if they're attributed as game worn use photo examples if you can find them of the players using them. We operate in a field of limited available information as Jerry discovered when researching his gloves. I'm not making a mistake when I say: Do your homework as best you can and know who you are dealing with. I get the latter advice over and over again in every collectible field.